I’m Phoebe Judge, Host of Outlaw and This Is Love, and This Is How I Work.

The Real Crime Podcast Criminal and the Human Interest Podcast This Is Love are two of the most popular podcasts currently in existence, according to Apple’s charts. Phoebe Judge leads and contributes to both of these independent high-performance shows. We talked to her about her radio experience, how she creates new episodes and how she prepares her studio before recording.

Location: Durham, North Carolina. Current performance: host and co-author of the films Criminal and This is Love. Current computer: 15- inch MacBook Pro . Current mobile device: iPhone 8 (new ones are too big). One word that best describes the way you work: “ Calm”

First of all, tell us a little about your past and how you got where you are now.

I began an internship at a public radio station in Cape Cod, which led me to the Salt Institute for Documentary Research in Maine. Then I worked for two and a half years as a reporter for the Mississippi Public Broadcasting on the Gulf Coast. I left this job to travel to India to report and document the health of the Ganges River . After India I started working as a producer and guest host for a national show called The Dick Gordon Story , which was produced at WUNC in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. When this show was canceled in 2013, Lauren Sporer, my co-writer, and I started talking about creating something of our own. Last February we launched our second show, This Is Love.

Tell us about a recent work day.

I wake up around 6:30. By 7:30 am I had checked my email, Slack, and Twitter. I drink coffee and make a list. I like to write on paper lists of what I need to do on this day. I am incredibly old-fashioned in many ways. I’m sure it’s pretty difficult to work with me. We have a shared Google calendar, but I’m just copying everything from it to my paper list. By 8:30 am, I’m on the phone with Lauren, discussing the day.

After that, if I’m lucky, I try running or go to Pilates. Lauren, Nadia Wilson and I usually meet in the studio around 9:30. Most likely, we will have something to record in the morning: re-recording of the narrative for the next episode, advertising or promotional videos.

By 11:30 am I think about lunch (this is my big obsession). I always come up with some really great, thoughtful lunch ideas, but usually we just get Chopt from DoorDash. Chopt just gave up on the spicy Calabrian Caesar salad and I don’t know what to do now. 7 out of 10 times they forget my salad dressing anyway. We talk about story ideas while we eat.

After lunch we do interviews or start editing the next episode of ” Outlaw” or ” This is Love.” Sometimes we edit scripts between interviews. We did four interviews the day before. We prefer to work from home, so the hours spent together in the studio are usually very busy and productive.

Lauren and I usually have phone meetings interspersed during the day. We have storytelling in our work, but we also do business. Around 4:30 am we work on the unfinished ends. We’re all going home by 5:30.

I try to do something outside of my home or home for a while before going back to Slack and sending an email. We are constantly sending short audio clips of unfinished episodes to each other via Slack.

We take turns writing and mixing episodes. If I write a series, then everything flies out the window. The evening was spent pacing nervously from the table. Writing a sentence and then convincing yourself of it is awful.

I start cooking dinner at 7. I love to cook dinner. I usually eat around 8. After dinner, I check Lauren and Nadia again to see what we missed the day. We are constantly on Slack. Probably too many. It always seems like there is something to do.

By 10:30 am I’m in bed reading. I’m reading The Unredeemed Prisoner right now by John Demos.

Tell us about how you are filming Criminal .

Lauren, Nadia or I will suggest a plot idea. If we all agree that this is a good story, one of us will contact potential storytellers and interview them in advance. We always do a preliminary interview to make sure that someone is not only ready to talk, but also suitable. We want people to understand that our show is different in that we do not collect sound bites. It will be a long, personal conversation. I don’t do pre-interviews very often because if someone has already spoken to me, they might think they don’t need to go into all the details because they will be repeated.

After the preliminary interview, we get together again and discuss if we like the story. We then decide whether to go for a face-to-face interview or conduct an interview in the studio. After we have made these logistical decisions, we create a list of questions and prepare to record the interview. We use Google Docs and write questions together and then use Google Docs chat to communicate with each other during interviews. The best interviews take place in places we don’t expect at all.

We transcribe our interviews with Trint (which isn’t perfect and requires a human to get through, but it’s much faster than transcribing from scratch) and then one of us will take the lead in writing the first draft of the script. During our first edit, we play the guest clips (we edit the audio in Pro Tools ) and I read the narration. After that we all sit, discuss the script and discuss how to improve it. Scripts are also written in Google Docs to facilitate collaboration. Whoever wrote the first draft of the script will come back and make changes. We then have a second edit. Sometimes after a third. Sometimes more. Each edit comes with its own fact-checking step.

When the script is in a good place, I will record the narration. Someone takes the lead in creating a sequence in Pro Tools (picking music, setting the tempo of a story). We share a rough mix internally and fix it. When we’re happy with that, we send it to Rob Byers, who balances the voices, removes any audio imperfections, and enhances the music to give it a criminal sound.

In the meantime, we are working with Julien Alexander , who from the very beginning is engaged in illustrations for ” Criminal” . Our episodes come out on Fridays, so we all listen to the finished episode for the last time, and then we plan to publish it at 4:00 am on Friday. We publish on the PRX publishing platform and our feeds are hosted on Feedburner.

Do you end up publishing every episode you start working on?

No, we decided in advance that it would be better to kill the story early. If there is no story, then even the best works in the world will not help. The beauty of being your own boss is that you don’t have to work on something you don’t want to work on.

What apps, gadgets or tools can’t you live without?

I use a Neumann TLM 103 microphone in the studio and wear Sony MDR-7506 headphones . In the field, I use a Marantz PMD 661 recorder and an Audio Technica AT8035 microphone .

I use a black moleskin leather pad every day to keep lists and take notes. It is slightly larger than a book and slightly smaller than a sheet of paper. I am also very obsessed with my Garmin watches. I use it to keep track of my heart rate and my runs. Basically it just reminds me when to move (which I haven’t heard yet). I also use Bose wireless headphones almost every day.

How is your workplace arranged?

I mainly work in two locations. I have a home office where I do most of my work. And then I also work in the studio where I set up my computer right behind the microphone and sit and work. Even if I don’t write anything down. Something about this calms me down.

How do you keep track of what you need to do?

Basically I use a list in my notebook, which I update every morning to indicate what needs to be done. We also use a shared Google Calendar. And we have a big board in the studio where we keep a current list of all our story ideas and a big calendar with release dates and air dates.

Tell us about an interesting, unusual, or challenging process you have at work.

I’m really obsessed with what the studio looks like right before the scene is recorded. I have to make sure that the table is clean and that all the chairs are in exactly the right place. I also have to make sure that the height of my chair is correct and the position of my arms is always the same. I walk like a wild man right before we start making sure everything looks perfect.

Who are the people who help you achieve results, and how do you rely on them?

The three of us do the show.

Lauren Sporer and I created both shows and together own Criminal Productions. I don’t think the shows would have continued if she hadn’t been a part of them. I just don’t think it works.

Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. When we hired her three years ago, it felt like a godsend. I don’t think Lauren and I have ever imagined how perfect she is for the team.

What’s your favorite shortcut or hack?

I feel like the personification of “anti-hacking”. I don’t know any cool labels. I just recently learned how to take a screenshot on my computer.

How to recharge or relax?

I like to take long walks. Sometimes I take the 10 mile walk just for fun. I never like to repeat my steps, so I usually need to find someone to pick me up somewhere 10 miles down the road. I also love to cook.

What’s your favorite side project?

I’m brewing beer now. One of our sponsors gave us a free beer brewing kit and I became obsessed with it. I’m pretty scared to drink it because I’m afraid of infection, but it was a lot of fun.

What are you reading now or what do you recommend?

I currently read a lot of books about Down East Main, mostly boring and only about topography. I have also been reading Elizabeth Strote a lot lately . And I’m just finishing Nathaniel Philbrick’s Mayflower , which came out many years ago, and I forgot about it, but I’m very glad I found it. Also Colson Whitehead Underground Railroad . (It seems to me that most of the times in my life I am about a year behind.) And books about the escort business in New York in the 70s.

Who else would you like to see to answer these questions?

Roman Mars, Roxanne Gay, Gail Collins.

What’s the best advice you’ve ever received?

Do not be afraid, there will be no sense from this all the same.

What problem are you still trying to solve?

My lisp.